Very interesting. I'm working on translation in a very technical decision-theoretic sense: how do we relate state-space models of the world expressed in different languages.
But I thought, and a quick search appears to confirm as a majority view, that the (New Testament) gospels were originally written in Greek. That would make sense to me given that Christianity had spread widely by the time they were written, on most accounts.
Wow, I am super late to this party and have so many thoughts, but I will start with the obvious one thanking you for introducing me to this astounding paper by Andrea! I can't wait to read it!
Alongside Dante, a word here for Paradise Lost, which insists you feel the strangeness of biblical stories with its tottering piles of allusion in page-long sentences, but by being written in English closes off the avenue of escape of saying it’s just from another language and place and that’s why it’s hard to understand.
"...if you, as I, do not know greek, then you, as I, never will read Homer. We are all forever at the mercy of the people who do, however they decide to translate it."
It seems to me the situation is much worse than this. Modern classicists probably don't "know" ancient greek in the same way that ancient greeks "knew" greek; so much of that cultural context is just gone and there's no way to get it back! It was in their heads and now their heads are empty.
For example, I just read Emily Wilson's translation of The Illiad, and I thought a fair number of passages were were actually pretty funny. Like, laugh-out-loud funny! And then I would think, was that supposed to be funny, or am I just *not getting it*? How would anyone, even Emily Wilson, know for sure if Homer was being funny or ironic?
hm! of course what you say is true. but i wonder if that really is "worse"! There's no tragedy if no improvement in understanding is possible. In fact, saying that makes us feel better. "oh dont worry, nobody really understands" -- in an absolute sense, maybe true. but i do think the people who speak ancient greek and study ancient greece probably do understand more than me and you. and we all know that's true for the most part, even if we can't logically prove it's true in any given situation. and that's the tension we have to live with.
i do love that you pointed out how funny homer is -- I felt it too! i also wondered how much was meant to be ironic.
something i noticed with dante is that i feel *way* more able to understand what he was doing. now, again, that could be abject delusion (probably is). but other evidence does suggest 1300s florence was much more similar to us than the homeric greeks...
"they were playing the game of backgammon of the heart. " - 10 stars. What a great line.
The most wonderful accidental poetry I ever encountered was on an otherwise dismal political blog discussion during the Obama administration where one of the participants wrote that she was "feint of heart" which seems like a good move in backgammon of the heart.
It's so good right? I love that line about backgammon.
Some of my best lines also come from errors -- and I heard stevie nicks wrote "edge of 17" after mis-hearing someone say "age of 17". I love that stuff.
Always so exciting to get a comment from you victor!
The onigiri footnote reminded me of my old Sega and Alex Kidd in Miracle World, where at the end of each level he eats a rice ball (I knew they were onigiri because of one of my classmates that exact same year). However, later versions of the game replace the onigiri with a hamburger.
Thank you so much, Jason! And thanks for reading my footnotes, makes me really feel seen and appreciated.
I truly find it so stupid and annoying when media is westernized for us so that we never learn what onigiri are etc. On the other hand, if we still can have access to the original, in some ways it's quite a funny marker of cross-contextual transit.
Averages are useful things yet managing to averages can kill you.
Agriculture is selling a producer collar where you give away some upside to get higher floor protection.
Pretty smart idea.
Very interesting. I'm working on translation in a very technical decision-theoretic sense: how do we relate state-space models of the world expressed in different languages.
But I thought, and a quick search appears to confirm as a majority view, that the (New Testament) gospels were originally written in Greek. That would make sense to me given that Christianity had spread widely by the time they were written, on most accounts.
Ah, but I have seen people invoke this for old testament texts also!
Good correction though, I will add a footnote. Thank you very much.
https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenChristian/comments/1cbw4xp/1_corinthians_6910_does_not_condemn_homosexuality/
Ah this was a wonderful read, loved it!
A meandery tour de force. Thank you!
thank you for this excellent description of who i am as a person lol
I loved reading this. Thinking about the most ancient possible history is great and you are great. Thanks
Thank you very much :)
Wow, I am super late to this party and have so many thoughts, but I will start with the obvious one thanking you for introducing me to this astounding paper by Andrea! I can't wait to read it!
You’re very welcome Nicole and never late simply early for the revival :)
Alongside Dante, a word here for Paradise Lost, which insists you feel the strangeness of biblical stories with its tottering piles of allusion in page-long sentences, but by being written in English closes off the avenue of escape of saying it’s just from another language and place and that’s why it’s hard to understand.
okay hell yes. i love this comment.
"...if you, as I, do not know greek, then you, as I, never will read Homer. We are all forever at the mercy of the people who do, however they decide to translate it."
It seems to me the situation is much worse than this. Modern classicists probably don't "know" ancient greek in the same way that ancient greeks "knew" greek; so much of that cultural context is just gone and there's no way to get it back! It was in their heads and now their heads are empty.
For example, I just read Emily Wilson's translation of The Illiad, and I thought a fair number of passages were were actually pretty funny. Like, laugh-out-loud funny! And then I would think, was that supposed to be funny, or am I just *not getting it*? How would anyone, even Emily Wilson, know for sure if Homer was being funny or ironic?
hm! of course what you say is true. but i wonder if that really is "worse"! There's no tragedy if no improvement in understanding is possible. In fact, saying that makes us feel better. "oh dont worry, nobody really understands" -- in an absolute sense, maybe true. but i do think the people who speak ancient greek and study ancient greece probably do understand more than me and you. and we all know that's true for the most part, even if we can't logically prove it's true in any given situation. and that's the tension we have to live with.
i do love that you pointed out how funny homer is -- I felt it too! i also wondered how much was meant to be ironic.
something i noticed with dante is that i feel *way* more able to understand what he was doing. now, again, that could be abject delusion (probably is). but other evidence does suggest 1300s florence was much more similar to us than the homeric greeks...
"they were playing the game of backgammon of the heart. " - 10 stars. What a great line.
The most wonderful accidental poetry I ever encountered was on an otherwise dismal political blog discussion during the Obama administration where one of the participants wrote that she was "feint of heart" which seems like a good move in backgammon of the heart.
It's so good right? I love that line about backgammon.
Some of my best lines also come from errors -- and I heard stevie nicks wrote "edge of 17" after mis-hearing someone say "age of 17". I love that stuff.
Always so exciting to get a comment from you victor!
She misheard none other than Tom Petty! His American Southern accent is one in which that vowel slides that way.
Amazing as always R!
The onigiri footnote reminded me of my old Sega and Alex Kidd in Miracle World, where at the end of each level he eats a rice ball (I knew they were onigiri because of one of my classmates that exact same year). However, later versions of the game replace the onigiri with a hamburger.
Thank you so much, Jason! And thanks for reading my footnotes, makes me really feel seen and appreciated.
I truly find it so stupid and annoying when media is westernized for us so that we never learn what onigiri are etc. On the other hand, if we still can have access to the original, in some ways it's quite a funny marker of cross-contextual transit.
Eat your hamburgers, Apollo https://www.awkwardzombie.com/comic/culture-schlock